A Gardeners Forum Forums Members History Forum Life 2005 Lasagna questions

Help! Some questions about my lasagna beds.

For those of you that don't know what a lasagna bed is, to make it really short & sweet it's a bed that's layered with compostable stuff. Green/brown/green/brown, etc. Some of the compost heroes have said to put down cardboard first, to kill any grass or annual weeds below. There's no turning involved in this method. The worms do the work for you, by coming up to munch and going back down into the depths (digging for you) and pooping (leaving 'castings') in the process. It takes longer than 'hot composting', but is easier, since you can just let the stuff sit and let the worms do the work.

Okay, so my questions.

1. How long from laying cardboard to planting? I laid cardboard in like June for 2 beds. It's gone (yes, I've peeked). Is it 'done' and 'plantable' now?

2. I have one lasagna bed that's fairly large (long). I just don't have enough greens or browns at once to layer it. Can I just use my finished compost instead, and then leave it sit over the winter and plant in spring? Do I need to cover the compost with straw or can I leave it bare?

I think that's it for now. Thanks

Hi Mary,
Answer 1/. (a)You can actually do it immediately. Depending upon what you plant. potatoes are an example. (b) Yes!

2/. (a) Yes
(b) To cover with straw is best but not entirely necessary. The straw will help protect the compost from drying and give the critters more goodies to munch on. Consider planting a green manure crop into the compost. Then turning it all in once it is lush. You use stuff like vetch, clovers, chick peas. Whatever is available, preferably but not necessarily a legume. Maybe a crop of snow peas along the back edge of the garden on a makeshift trellis.

Wow...Longy...this is like an aha moment for me. Like, I had an epiphany - only I didn't have it. A winter cover crop - ingenius (even if I can't spell it)!

Anywhoose...

So, say I plant hairy vetch - will I be fighting to get it out of my flower beds next year? I understand how it works for tomatoes...found a great site explaining the concept... And I'm finding a bunch of crown vetch seeds on ebay...not sure if it's the same kinda vetch though - is it?

I know I've got red clover all over (hey Im a poet and I didnt know it...da-dum-dum) but I dunno how I'd get it moved over to where I need it. Other than catching seeds and planting for next year which kinda sounds silly seein as I'll be pretty ready to plant by then...though I guess I could plant a cover crop every fall? Not realistic for a perennial bed, I don't think. I wonder how that'd work. Anyway, information/question overload here...

I'll have to read up on this more - but fast! It's probably a month away from first frost, I think (?) so I need to get moving on this one. Thanks Longy!

this is like an aha moment for me. Like, I had an epiphany
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Yeah goodonya. Aha is an unfortunate memory of a band from the 80's and i had a pipheny on the lemon tree this morning.....
If you plant a green manure crop, dig it back in before it seeds. No weed problem. I dunno crown vetch, i think it's a legume. Like i said, whatever works. I've used old birdseed and dug it back in when it was less than a foot high. Sunflowers, wheat etc. Whatever. In a perennial bed, you can grow the stuff until lush then just mulch over the crop thickly with hay oor straw or whatever. Around the perennials. A bit of dickin around but it'll work just the same.
Hey did i tell you? It's spring here. Warm weather for the next 8 months. Enjoy your frost

Yeah well there wasn't a thing wrong with the 80s. Well, okay that's a lie. But aha wasn't really one of them. You oughta be careful getting your piphenies in the lemon tree - that can cause permanant damage dontchaknow?

I know. Gloater. I've got some other choice words for you, but they'll have to go PM. Remind me to rub your nose in it next time our spring rolls around, ok? And just wait till you find out what the 'it' is In the meantime, get a brolly - no wukkers, have a cracker. And if ya can't be good...

I'm jealous, Longy. It's only about 50F here today, and all the leaves are turning. I guess I'll just make the best of it and gather them up when they fall... right, Mary? lol

Regarding this concept of lasagna composting, I'm planning on trying this other thing because I saw a neighbor do it and it really worked out okay for her. Just wondered if any of you have any thoughts on this... opinions and suggestions welcome.

She laid out an old carpet (a great big one) on her property where she wanted a garden, and then let everything below it die out, grass and all. I saw the area about two years later and it's perfect.

Well, I have about 400 or more square feet of carpet from a renovation here, so I thought I'd try the same thing for a vegetable garden. But after reading this thread, I was thinking I'd try to implement the lasagna method as well. I happen to have a bunch of big cardboard boxes, too. Well enough for a layer anyway. I was thinking that rather than just laying out the carpet alone, I'll load up a bunch of compostable stuff beneath it in layers.

It won't be pretty for awhile, but it sure would be easier than trying to dig out old sod and established weeds in that big a spot. It'll be covered in snow soon enough anyway.

Any and all feedback welcome and appreciated.

~SuzyQ~

ps: "Hairy Vetch" ??? I have no idea what that could be, but it doesn't sound very appetizing. lol. I think I'll just start with potatoes and carrots for now. I can just hear me now dealing with the kids.... "Sit back down and eat your HAIRY VETCH or no TV!" lol

It sure doesn't sound appetizing. I don't want to touch a hairy vetch, much less eat one!

Catch me while I faint at the thought I'm going to put in my vote wayyyy against the carpet idea. Tell ya why. We just bought this house last year, and I've been cleaning the yard since spring. Well, the previous owners must have tried mulching with carpet too, because I keep finding chunks and fibres of really gross green carpet (yaknow, that pukey green from the 70s) everywhere I dig against the house. It's not only annoying, but it's obviously synthetic and will never break down - so I keep pick, pick, picking it out thread by thread, fuz by fuz Not only that, but the bugs and stuff need air and water down there to work for ya...and to boot, if your carpet was treated with stainmaster or anything (formaldahyde?) you'll be adding that icky stuff to your soil.

Cardboard on the other hand, is soooooooo much more earth friendly. The worms love to munch it, and it will do just as good of a job as the carpet would (better, if ya ask me because you never have to worry about picking it up once it's down)

I have a few lasagna beds going - they're so super easy - I think putting a layer of carpet would take away that joy of being so easy factor too. I mean, this way, you put that first layer of cardboard down, and you're done ever thinking about that layer again. You just keep piling on the goodies...

So, layer your cardboard first, then your compostable goodies, then some of that hay you're getting on the very top. That's it. Easy peezey.

The only thing I'm not sure about is perennial weeds. Like dandy-lions as I affectionately refer to them as. I'm not sure you can smother them. Those buggers seem like they'll find their way and pop through a hundred feet of compost. I'm not sure even carpet would get em! I dunno though...may be someone else knows for sure? Longy? Weezie? I DO know that once you've got your ground worked up by the composting, they'll be much easier to pull though

Phew. I get extra wordy when it comes to compost. Guess ya could say I'm full of it

Thanks Mary,

Okay, no carpet. I never considered that it would break down. I thought it would just be a temporary cover. And hey! Mine's the ugly orange stuff from the 70s as well! lol

I am going to use it on this hill I have that slopes down on the edge of my property though. It's a wide hill of thistles and they're extremely established in there. Spraying doesn't help much either. I'd never plant anything in there anyway and luckily nobody can see it where it is, that is until the thistles rear their ugly heads.

Thanks for getting back to me so fast. I'm heading out today to get started on this lasagna bed. Now just a few (more) questions for you and Longy first though.

How many layers of cardboard and/or newspaper? I assumed it's just the one on the bottom but since it's called 'lasagna' it makes me think there should be more than one.

It's going to be about 15' x 20' or 30' I think, so that's a lot of greens to find. Would a layer of fresh sheep manure (not the composted stuff I used before) be a good nitrogen to add?

Reading up on this topic here, I see mention of people using cheap dogfood and pop as an 'activator'. Could I add a bunch of dogfood and would it be considered a carbon? The pop would be ongoing because we throw out all the flat stuff anyway.

And of course I have my straw.

I'm just trying to figure out what materials I can readily find available to get this going.

One last thing. This area is all clay right below a thin surface of old topsoil, not much there to start with at all. growing nothing but clover and weeds in there now. I was wondering if the clay breaks down a bit with the composting process.

Sorry to go on so long.

Hope you're all having a fantastic weekend!

~SuzyQ~

Hey Suze - sorry I didn't catch ya earlier - hope I did't hold up your lasagna plans for the day!

I humored myself a while back (yes I do that a lot), when I proclaimed, "weeds are mother nature's armpit hairs" Kinda goofy analogy, I know, but they're there to protect her soil, yaknow? If ya don't grow something to protect her soil, she will put weeds there. So, think about some kind of creeping something. May be carpet juniper (hardy to zone 3) to help with erosion, and keep down weeds. Just a thought, unless you wanted to keep your orange carpet there as a permanant ground cover

1 layer of cardboard - I'd say about 7 sheets of newspaper. The thicker the better. You want it thick-ish so the weeds can't pop through. Oh, and with the cardboard, make sure it's overlapping - any little tiny gap will let light in and weeds will catch the rays and grow.

Yes and no. The lasagna just refers to the layering of browns and greens. your browns don't all have to be newspaper. I used dry grass and hay for my browns.

Longy's definitely the manure expert - I don't know what sheeps eat, or how their digestive system works. My concern is them eating weed seeds, and those transferring to your compost, since there's no heat involved in lasagna composting, nothing would kill the seeds. My gut about manure is, use it in your hot piles - it's a great activator, and there's no (or at least less) worry about weed seeds.

I've used both dry cat food and dog food, but I haven't bought it specifically for composting. You might want to watch what's in it, depending on how organic you want to be? I wouldn't recommend the dogfood being too close to the top, or it could very well attract pests (including neighborhood dogs!)I'd personally opt to buy straw if it's comparable in price.

Flat soda is great for compost...either method you use. Any leftover drink (except dairy) goes into my kitchen bucket.

You bet your canadian goose it does! Wait till ya start working the soil that has been amended with compost - it's like magic...almost as cool as the steam thing!

Please - look who you're talking to!

Hope that helps! I'm sure Longy will be alongy to help with your manure question.

Sheep poo is great. As a garden additive directly or as a compost accelerator. Be generous with it, it doesn't get too hot like chook poo. You can actually use it as mulch.

Regarding the clay. Spread a handful to the square yard of gypsum over the soil before covering it with cardboard. The same of pelletised chicken manure. Dynamic lifter is what it's called over here. The gypsum will help break the clay and the manure will replenish nitrogen lost when the grass starts to break down. And forget the carpet. Please.

Good Morning, Everyone. Mary, you didn't hold up my plans at all. The rain, the wind and the cold did that. I'll have to get at it one day this week when it gets a bit warmer.
I like that! SOOO true! Something to make me chuckle while I'm yanking them out. lol
I'm already doing that on another hill here. And I've still got at least two or more acres to work on that's full of clover, dandylions, sparse grass and clay. A lot to take on for a novice like me from the city. lol. This spring my husband and I planted about 30 young pine trees along the back of the property that should make a nice wall some day. That thistle patch is behind and below them so I think I'm going to stick the carpet there anyway. I'll pull it up at the end of next summer and see what's left.

We've planted about 25 birch all along the side of the property too, a bunch of shrubs and bushes on the hill right in the front (still need more), and about 50 poplars way down in the front to fill in some of the space by the slough. Luckily there's already about 50 more 50' pine trees and other varieties scattered around the place. That should leave me about an acre to plant flowersbeds, gardens and nice grass, which should be manageable I think.

A lottery win would sure speed this process up for me though.
... not to mention my own! lol. Good Point. He just doesn't understand. lol

Fantastic, Longy! I can get lots of that for really cheap. And now, just out of curiousity, I have to go look up 'Chook'. lol
I'll have to ask around about that stuff. Or tear down a wall and break it up...

Longy, I'll only keep the carpet down for a year. on that nasty old thistle bed. It'll be covered in snow soon enough and won't even begin to thaw until next April. Just one summer then I'll toss it out before it decomposes.

Thanks so much for all your answers, Ladies. I really appreciate it! And I'm looking forward to sharing my successes with you down the road.

~Suzy~

I googled 'Chook' and this is the first thing I came across. I thought it would be some rare exotic Australian animal. lol

Well obviously I can't do this all over the property at once, so now I'm going to do TWO decent sized areas instead.

hmmmmmmmm make sure nobody in your house is looking before you read this post.

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ok, all set?

Seriously... When you lasagna your soil becomes very crumbly...to the point that it's like walking on the beach when you walk on it -- I hope that makes sense. It's light and fluffy and airy - like, imagine running your fingers straight down into the ground with hardly any resistance...

And, not that I'm anywhere near anything that resembles anything or anyone that golfs or has even touched a golf club but, I think lasagnaing to make a putting green wouldn't be the best idea for it...
....I hope so -- don't want you losing your free labor!

You could do the lasagna bed as the base for a putting green i reckon, then as the turf grows, topdress it with coarse sand and roll it repeatedly. Do this over a few seasons and it would pack down. The roots would be deep in the organic bed but it would have a hard surface. No chemical fertilisers would be needed over the years and it would drain the surface and still retain moisture really well. So no excess watering either. ;-)

You know the good thing after hearing what you two are saying then, is that putting greens actually do grow in quite a bit of sand anyway. I don't know if you all have stepped on one before, but it's really spongy and the grass is very fine and short. And what's the worst case scenario? I end up with another garden area. So far I've planted about ten shrubs on this slope I have out front. I dug large holes and filled them with fresh soil and compost to plant, but I left all the surrounding lawn and weeds there because the area is pretty large. (Clay close to the surface too.) I plan to keep adding more and more shrubs over time. I was wondering if it would be a good idea to make large circular lasagna beds around each of the shrubs? I'm thinking that over time as things mature, this will help to gradually clear all the grass out of this area.

On the other hand, is there any chance there might be too much nitrogen doing it this way and I could kill my shrubs?

Thanks a lot,
~Suzy~

I've decided on composted chicken manure instead of sheep manure because I can get trailers full from a mushroom farm for $10 a load. I can't believe that! But feasibly it seems like the way to go. Plus I've got a never-ending supply of cardboard. I just can't seem to find gypsum though.
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Perfect. Go the chook poo. $10 already composted is a dream of mine. (As well as a much more perfect Alpha dream i have but that's another story..... ;-)
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Should I do more layers of cardboard/manure/straw? And should I throw fresh topsoil on top to keep it from blowing away? Or something else?
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hey, if you have more stuff available, throw it on. More is better. It won't blow away if you wet each layer well and then give the top layer a good drink. Topsoil may have weeds in it, defeating what you are trying to achieve. After a few days it will become a matted living mass of new soil life. You're gonna love it.
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I was wondering if it would be a good idea to make large circular lasagna beds around each of the shrubs?
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You're singin my song Suzy. Go a bit easier on the chook poo if you think it will be too much nitrogen, though the nitrogen will be burnt up as the weeds break down. Load it up with organic matter. It's all good.


BTW. If you have a mushroom farm nearby, then chances are they have spent mushroom compost cheaply available too. That stuff is the ducks guts. (That's a good thing OK!)

ducks guts...LMAO..that is a new saying..love it

:rolleyes: Men



Here's my latest, and I found straw for $4 a bale....but is probably a seasonal thing, so I'm thinking I'll stock up now.



This is my front lawn - sidewalk is public. Walk at the bottom of the pic leads to the front door. needs powerwashed badly! Anywho, this is a lasagna of grass, leaves and straw. Still in persuit of free poop.

So my next challenge is to figure out how to keep the dallis grass (which grows kind of horizontally and roots at the nodes) OUT of my new beds. Hmph!

Thanks so much, Longy! I told Hub how you're all for the lasagna around the shrubs and he said, "Well, lets just do the whole hill then" Yay! He said why should we do it over more years than we need to? I can't tell you how much I appreciate learning this alternative to digging the entire area out and trucking in dirt. Thanks so much!

Mary, the only reason I didn't want to do too much at once was because I worried the neighbours would complain, but luckily the trees have closed us in now and nobody will see it from the street. But I was wondering if you get any complaints doing it by the sidewalk. Just curious. I bet it'll be gorgeous when you're done though. Wish I could send you some Chook Poo! lol

~Suzy~

I hear ya Suze...we're so rural, and our walk is raised up higher than the street so nobody can even really see unless they're really looking. Besides that, this place was so run down and trashy before we bought it and cleaned it up that I dont think anyone cares what we do -- we've made it look so much better so far, that I guess they trust it'll just get better from here on in

I sure would love some of that chook poo! I was really close to a 'source' and that fell through -grumble- just gotta keep meeting new folks and asking around I reckon

lets just do the whole hill then"
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Exactly! Goodonyuz.
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how to keep the dallis grass (which grows kind of horizontally and roots at the nodes) OUT of my new beds.
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Mary, if you cut a trench with a sharp spade beside the bed, it will help keep the grass out. Just cut in at an angle on each side and make like a 'V' with the spade. Keep the soil/grass and use it elsewhere. (Build up the next lasagna bed with it before the newspaper goes down for example.)
It'll also stop water from coming down that slope in torrential rain and taking your garden into the street and it will improve drainage and give a cleaner definition of the edge. Use a stringline or garden hose to keep it straight for a tidy finish. You could do it on the sidewalk side too if you wanted to define that line better as well.