A Gardeners Forum Forums Members History Forum Life 2005 Bible Study II - Despair

That is a really good point Fernie, I never thought of despair along those lines before. Sure does give you something else to think about.

It is very hard to avoid despair. When we lost our granddaughter at 18 it almost killed all of us. They are supposed to bury us we are not supposed to bury our children and garndchildren. The way she was killed hurt us I think more then the fact she was killed. Also with my wife I find I am blaming myself for not being able to save her. After all I am supposed to take care and protect my wife which I did not. I know it was all Gods will I do not question God. I struggle to not blame myself for her death. I know she is out of pain and can see again. I console myself that she is cooking for and serving God,Jesus and the saints in Heaven. Hope this don't sound corny or anything I don't know how to put a lot of my thoughts in writting. I struggle a lot to just put thoughts into words .
Jimmy

It does not sound corny at all JV. Heaven is a wondorous place where we are to live with all goodness and beauty. And if cooking is what Billie wants to do, then I am sure that is what she is happily doing, without having to clean the kitchen!

It gives those of us great comfort to see in our minds eye our loved ones doing what makes them happy in heaven. It helps us to avoid falling into despair to know that they are in a better place than we are.

A much better PLACE!!! And would I want to bring Dayne back to this world to see what we are seeing, to live what we are living? Well...the "selfish" part of me would LOVE to have him sitting here next to me so I could touch his nappy hair..and have to smell his stinkin socks...but the loving part of me knows that he is where we are all working to be! Why would I want to deny him sitting at the feet of Jesus with a banquet table prepared before him and the choirs of angels in perfect harmony.

This is some beautiful writing - just beautiful. The closest death I've had to deal with is a cousin, (my father died last month but we weren't close), so I can't relate to those of you who have. I have the utmost respect and admiration for you guys in the way that you word your thoughts and feelings - without bitterness or hatred. It's so inspiring. Thank you.

Sheri, I lost my entire family, except my sister & her children & my son, to cancer in a 5 year period. It was crazy...my sister & I were becoming profession funeral planners! And all of the sudden, the huge family get togethers and holidays were gone. There was just no one left. I didn't handle it well at all for a long time...it seemed so harsh. Both sets of my grandparents were deeply religous people...never smoked, drank, nothing. One of my grandmothers always wore long dresses with long sleeves...sunlight never touched her body...when she passed away, I wanted to see her skin...when I looked at her arm..she had the most beautiful mother of pearl looking skin..it was almost irodesent or something. But I said all of that to say...I was floored at all of them having cancer. And I am not going to tell you that I understand it any better now than then...I have just come to understand that God has a very specific plan for all of us...and their plan was fulfilled. Like Jimmy said about his Billie...my grandparents would be overwhelmed at our world today...they would be devistated at things that are happening...their hearts would be broked....so maybe, just maybe, that is why God allowed them to not have to deal with this stuff. And in a way...that just confirms what a kind & gentle heavenly father we have.

We have not had much loss in our family and what we have had, I have not handled well at all. I hope that if I have to deal with death now, I can do it with more grace than I have before. I think now that I have the Lord in my life and heart daily instead of just a figure out there somewhere, it will be a bit easier.

Grief is ok. A natural process to help get over the loss. I think it is when we wallow in the process and make it all about ourselves that it becomes not about the loss of a loved one but about selfishness.

Does anyone read Oswald Chambers? In his book "My Utmost for His Highest" (a daily devotional)? His February 17 and 18th readings are about depression and despair. He calls it natural human conditions that God can lift us out if we arise and do the next thing. The next thing is to TRUST God absolutely. Today OC talks about holding onto that trust even when the Lord is shrouded from our view. God is taking us by a way we don't or can't understand and ultimately with faith and trust, that way will become clear. Do we have the spritual fortitude to wait for the way to become clear?

I don't believe it was God's will that any of my children died. I do believe they are now in a better place with God. I read in the bible somewhere that Satan has control of the earth. So I blame the bad on Satan. I chose some selfish grieving for a time. And that led me to despair. But God, when I invited him to take control of my life, helped me learn to cope and get on with whatever He has in store for me. I hope from now on, I can grieve healthily and keep God in my life.

Fernie, "MY UTMOST FOR HIS HIGHEST" is the all time leading top seller of devotionals. I was very fortunate that my dad had a zillion copies of it. I certainly would recomend it to anyone wanting a good devotional..
My thinking (or maybe I should say "belief") is a little different than Fernie's. I do believe it was God's will for my son to die. I have always believed that God has a perfect plan for our life even before we were ever a twinkle in moma's eye. And because God is all seeing and all knowing...he knows exactly from start to finish the journey we will take. Yes, he gives us the power of "choice"..and we don't always make the right ones...but he knows that before we even face that situation. Just as God allowed Satan to "take" Job's children...he "allowed" Satan to do that. He could have stopped it at any time...and he did restrict it to anything except Job's life. So, I have to believe that had it not been God's will for that to happen (for what ever reason) he would NOT have allowed it to happen. I also do not believe that Satan has control of the world. If he did we would not be allowed the freedom of worship that we have...there will be a time that Satan WILL be loosed on the earth...that is in the time of tribulation....the world will NOT be allowed the freedom of worship, or even be able to have a Bible...the time of tribulaton will be like nothing we have EVER seen with our eyes. I do believe that Satan is in our world...he is very real and demonic spirits are very much alive and working...but just as in the day of Job...he CANNOT do anything...that God, again for whatever reason,does not allow. He has boundries set before him...if he did not...we would parrish for sure. Please do not misunderstand me..these are just things that I believe in my heart...just the way I have been taught. I believe that we all have different ideas and views and we learn from each other. I am THANKFUL for the freedom we have to be able to do that.

Great points to think about from both of you. My questions that come from that are: If Satan does not have some sort of control or allowances on the Earth, why is there such evil. Why are all people, not just us allowed to worship freely. Here in America, we have great liberties that just are not allowed other places in the world.

And on a totally different note. I saw on teh news today that the Palestenians were allowed free reign in the Gaza strip and the first thing they did were to burn the temples. It was with great sorrow that I watched this and with you, Hinda in my thoughts and prayers during this very trying time for you and your people.

What a beautiful thought - I often think that as much as I would dearly love to put my arms around him again I would not take him from where he is. In my devotions on the morning he died I read One year after he died we hosted a "party" for his entire marching band, youth group and all the neighbors. As part of the celebration of his life I told the story of his salvation. Two teens were saved that night. I wish the whole world could have seen those same two stand up in church yesterday at the invitation of a visiting missionary to follow Christ wherever he leads - the same commitment Pete had made just months before he died. There were very few dry eyes around us. I wondered if it was worth my sons life to usher into the kingdom all the ones who were saved at his funeral and others since then - I know that Pete would say absolutely.

What a tender topic this has proved to be. I think we all have at least come to the brink of despair if not plummeted into it and the reoccuring theme is that the joy of salvation has pulled us out.

As to why there is so much evil in the world, one of my favorite epistles, 1 Peter 5:8, says "Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." There's a very good reason why he is called the prince of this world.

Oh my goodness Bev. I am so warmed by all that you wrote. What a wonderful tribute to your son that you can look back on his life and see so much good in it and know that he touched so many lives.

That is a life I would like to share with my son. So just know that Pete is continuing to touch others through you.

Bev...Than yo for sharng the devotion you were given..what a wonderful account of your son's purpose. I could write on and on the amazing things that surrounded us at the time of Dayne's death. I was doing some study to answer Triss' question about satan in the world. THE FIRST scripture that I came to was the exact scripture you quoted from 1 Peter 5:8.....I couldn't believe you included that! What a confirmation! I try very hard not to say anything that I cannot back up with scripture.
We as Christian have a tendecy to "blame it all on the devil" when in fact it may be some of our own carelessness or fleshly nature which led to the sin or the error. It can be said however, that when it is our fleshly nature or the world which draws us from the Lord..and not the devil directly...it is true that satan and his army of demons desire that we be drawn to the world's standards.
As far as the "other" people who do not have the "freedoms" that we have is a direct result of the laws/governing of their particular sociaty. They are decieved (just as people in the opld testement & new) in believing by worshipping "idols" or other gods..that is the religion that was choosen y their families...thus the need for the missionaries.

Vanessa I think you hit the nail on the head when you said deceived. I think that as Westerners we don't like to give credit for our behavior to anyone other than ourselves because we value individuality so much. Certainly I can get myself into all kinds of trouble with my mouth and attitude but sometimes we need to pay attention to the fact that Satan delights in our misdeeds and attempts to lead us astray. Jeremiah 17:9 says "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" We are fallen and that nature contributes mightily to our sin but we should not discount the role Satan plays as he masquerades as an angel of light.

Triss I have an addition to the Bible search engines that's great for key word and passages searches. You will probably have to clean it up for me because I remain clueless.
http://bible.gospelcom.net/

My problem is I remember reading something and cannot remember where!!! I know people can lead themselves into destruction. I have to take responsibility for my own actions. I just believe that satan is responsible for things like disease or depression that leads to suicide or just plain deception and temptation. He can't mess with our will. I don't know that that is scriptural....I need to go looking.

Bev...my attitude is my own worst enemy!!I REALLY get myself in a lot of trouble with it! I heard a little saying one time and I have it written in the front of my Bible..I have to look at it EVERY day...it says

Sometimes God calms the storm...
But sometimes God let's the storm rage..and calms his child!

That spoke volumes to me...I believe that God is not always as concerned with the storm we are going through as he is our ATTITUDE and reaction about the storm. Are we complaining...or trusting? Are we trying to "fix it" ourselves or putting it in his hands? I have a REALLY hard time because I get discouraged VERY easy...I shouldn't...and I really try to work on my reactions..but I have a LONG ways to go! I've been going around that mountain a long time...you would think I would LEARN!!!

Fernie...you are absolutely correct! The name "satan" means "enemy"; the devil; the enemy of God & man.

satan encouraged David to sin 1 Chronicles 21:1

tested Job Job 1:6-12

tempted Jesus Luke 4:1-13

is a fallen angel Luke 10:18 & 19

will be thrown into the lake of fire Revelations 20:10

His main purpose is to "confuse us, decieve us and cause us to fall as he did.

Something that has been on my mind all week. Have been having a very hard time putting it to words but I am going to try because I cannot shake it and feel very compelled to share and get some input on it from all of you.

My brother Jake was not a believer. In fact he said more than once that he did not believe God existed. I have absolutely no idea if he ever changed his views on this but I always prayed for him and still do pray for his soul.

He killed his wife and then killed himself and whenever I let myself dwell on that, I have an overwhelming fear and knowledge that he is not in heaven, how could he be after what he did. I always hope that somehow, someway before his death he found the Lord but I also doubt that he did. There is no way to know for sure as I was not there in the moments before he died.

When I allow myself to travel down this road of thought, I am overwhelmed by sadness, grief and can feel myself succumbing to despair. It hurts so badly to know I may never again be in his presence.

I know others have dealt with suicide, how do you manage it all?

Triss...you pretty much answered your own question! Ruf & I talked about this for a long time last night...pertaining to a different situation...but the same subject. You have to come to the knowledge of your personal belief...grounded in the scripture. First of all...there is absolutely NO way that we have of knowing the condition of ANYONES heart other than our own. I believe that we are going to be VERY surprised when we get to Heaven...because there are many "good" people that I believe are not going to make it to Heaven because of the condition of their heart. Many people believe that if you are "good" you have it made...I do not believe that is so. I think we also judge people that "we" think will never make it...that will, because only God knows what is in their heart. My father as a pastor always said that people who commit suicide were committing "murder" and would not go to heaven. I personally do NOT agree with that...again..because ONLY GOD knows the truth that is in the heart. My brother also committed suicide...as did one of my Aunts....until I KNOW otherwise, I will hold on to the "hope" that they both made it to Heaven. Murder, depression, suicide, divorce...the list could go on...but none of these are the unpardonable sin. The scriptures VERY clearly state that there is ONLY 1 sin that is unpardonable...
Don't allow yourself to be tormented by these thoughts..that is where faith & hope come in..that is where mercy and grace fall in to place.

For one thing I know the suicide of my son was caused by a mental illness just as devastating as cancer or heart disease. I call it emotional cancer. So I believe that is what my son died from. He wasn't trying to kill his self, he was trying to get rid of the pain. I don't think God punishes people for being mentally ill.

Suicide is the all time guilt, shame and anger trigger for those left behind. And it usually takes some talks with a loving pastor to get a handle on it all. You might want to think about doing that.

We don't know what happens after death. Though we have all heard of the "white light" near death experiences. Perhaps people are given a chance then to recant their wrongs and sins, I don't know. All we can do is pray for those who are gone and try to keep our own houses in order I think. I do believe when our time comes and we die, we will then know what is not known now. And the understanding will not be a painful thing.

Thanks both of you. Talking of death and loss usually brings my thoughts of Jake to the forefront and he has been on my mind quite a bit this week.

I no longer have the anger and guilt that I could have done something. I know now there was nothing I could do as I was not there the moment it all happened. I still feel the sorrow and loss of one who was left behind as we all feel when anyone we love leaves us.

Most of the time, I do believe that they are together and in a better place. Most of the time I do believe that I will see him again. I just have moments of fear and uncertainty as I am sure we all have had at sometime in our lives. Those are times when I need to pray and turn my concerns over to God. And that is something I am still learning to do.

Fernie..I think you hit it right on target..we have NO way of understanding all of this now...we cannot comprehend God's thoughts or ways! The scripture says that we are responsable for our actions when we come to a point of accountability, although most people interpet that to children, my personal belief is that there are MANY adults that are not accountable due to depression, medications...things of that nature. We serve a very LOVING GOD, and to think that he would not consider all of those situations would be limiting him...and he has NO boundries.

While it's true that we can't know God's thoughts I think it is also true that we can never really know the mind or heart of anyone else. We don't know what passes through the mind of another at the moment of death. Are they hit with the magnitude of what they have done in those last seconds and come to repentence? There's no way we can know. We have to trust that the God who created them and knew them from before the foundation of the world and numbered their days was there at the last, waiting for them to turn to Him. I don't want to sound simplistic but suicide is mental illness and we don't blame or we shouldn't blame victims of mental illness for their disease. We get angry and hurt over the waste of potential but we aren't in charge. There are many days when I just sit and thank God that I am not in charge.

I know there are MANY days OTHER people thank God that I'm not in charge!

you are too funny!!!