A Gardeners Forum Forums General Discussion The Banter Hall A Question Of Greenspace -- All Opinions Wanted!

Hi everyone ~

I remember learning about 30+ years ago, that once greenspace had been built on, it almost never was allowed to revert back to greenspace. Which is why, we were told, we should preserve as much greenspace as possible and really try to limit overbuilding in our communities and also try to plant as much new plant material as possible, to keep the earth "green".

Recently, though, I was watching an "ecology" show on HGTV. The designers came in and REMOVED the homeowners entire yard! They covered it over with cement, rocks, gravel and a few desert-like plants. The designers explained that this design was "far more green" and thus better for the earth because it reduced the amount of water needed to maintain and saved the homeowners much money.

I was quite shocked!

Their logic seemed to defy everything I'd ever been taught and I really haven't been able to get a handle on the idea that cement is ever better than growing things for our earth.

Anyone have an opinion to share? Or shed some light for me on what those designers may have been intending to accomplish?

Merme

sounds to me the designers were just trying to accomplish a pay check. cement doesn't sound very green to me. I saw a show the other day on Europe they built a green bridge over a busy highway so the deer could cross without getting run over. One of the big cities around here now has a resturant that grows all it's own fruit, veg, and herbs on the roof. they use their kitchen scraps for compost. To me, those two above examples are 'green architechture'

I would have enjoyed seeing the show about the bridge, Cricket! Things like that amaze me.

Cool too, about the restuarant with the roof garden. I can think of other commercial sites who are trying innovative ideas, such as that factory which uses gas produced from a garbage dump to provide energy... one of those manufacturers of cleaning products. And isn't it Ford that has the plant which has been completely covered over with a garden?

Merme

There is also a restauranteer/grocery owner who grows all his produce organically in greenhouses on the roof of his building in NYC. We have had some of his homemade soups, etc and they are very good and fresh. Martha Stewart featured him recently on a show - Eli Zabar.

I cannot fathom how concrete could be good for greening up the earth!

Merme, do you know where that HGTV show was based? I mean a Xeriscape can be very beneficial to people that live in desert like climates like Vegas. I often see the grass ripped out in places like that---and then gravel and drought tolerant plants put in. In my mind I don't think of things like that really as "green", but it fits best sometimes with the climate.



I watched that show Lynne, really fascinating....and he grew them in water!!!

Okay, Missy Loz, you threw me with that unknown word "xeriscape"! I looked it up and found this definition: "an attractive, sustainable landscape that conserves water, is based on sound horticultural practices and shows evidence of care." I got that from the Colorado Springs Utilities company whan I Googled the word.

It hurts my head to think of because in my mind concrete covering the earth doesn't jibe with "sound horticultural practices" somehow?

But I CAN think of your example of Las Vegas where people do tend to try to make the desert act like a non-desert region.

I must be missing the point somewhere, though, because isn't it a good thing to reclaim a desert wasteland and make it bloom?

Ouch! Gotta think and read some more, I guess.

Merme *hurting brain*

I just heard about xeriscape (making us spell this early in the morning, loz! haha) about a year ago. to put is simply, to me it means...planting wild flowers and plants that are native or adaptive to that area....good for bugs, birds, and shouldn't need any additional water.

It can be hard and expensive water wise to turn a garden in Vegas into a lush green garden. A lot of people want really low maintenance/low cost yards, so they opt for all of that gravel with a few plants mingled in.

I personally would HATE it, but I guess if I lived in a climate like Vegas I might have no choice but to xeriscape.

Cricket---I'm a speller what can I say?

Well, in my opinion I guess it would all come down to where a person lives.

If I lived in an area where water was scarse(sp?) or I had to pay a high water bill(and couldn't afford to) then I guess I might consider the cement garden.

On the other hand I'd save my bath water if I had to

I too think I would save my bath water if I had to---but then i do not live in nevada either--but unless we are speaking desert here I so no real reason for it---

wellllllll - I lived in Reno for 7 years - hated it!!!
BUT... I did grow some awesome cacti in large window boxes that Don made for us - large barrel cacti that had the most beautiful blooms. And some other drought tolerant flowering plants - we lived in a townhouse on the edge of a golf course. Maybe it was a teensy bit more humid where we lived since they watered everyday? But then again... it was so dry there that my skin actually cracked, and the tumbleweed would roll down the street just like in old western movies.

Xeriscaping has been around for years! As a matter of fact, I've been getting emails from an online plant company that specializes in plants for dry areas, but they do also sell plants for other areas as well. I get emails from them several times a week, and while I've never ordered from them, I have gotten great ideas for plants to look for.

By the way... bath water, humidifier water, etc is known as grey water.
I used it a lot a few summers ago when we had a pretty bad drought and were on severe water restrictions.

Hi all,
We lived in AZ for yrs - and a lot of new developments there have to use the xericscaping in the front yards... back can be grass but with the price of water there it is far more economical to use drought tolerant plants and not plant grass.. golf courses recycle their water from water hazards and watering to keep the courses green too. When I lived in Tucson we recycled our grey water for our grass and flower beds- ... was easy because we lived in a double wide trailer there...
Nana

Was it you, Nana, who told us you are not allowed to save rain water now in your area?

Merme

Yes that was me- there has been West Nile outbreaks a lot here and they think if we save water more mosquitos will breed I guess- you can do it with covered barrels and all but so far it's illegal still... I do put out buckets when it rains and use that to water later... keep it in a plastic covered trash barrel, never had a problem growing mosquitos in it so far... it's out of sight on the side of the house too so noone else really knows it is there....kind of like us burning wood all winter- if it's a red day we arent's suppposed to burn but people who burn pellets or fake wood can - well I can't afford the elec bill to heat when it is really cold and we buy good hardwood that provides us a good heat with less wood so we do it anyway...
Nana

It doesn't seem right that they pass laws to insist on water conservation and then pass laws that you aren't allowed to save rainfall!

In Cincinnati, the zoo releases millions of bats each year to help control the mosquito population and that works really well. Being in the Ohio River valley where the air gets really hot, humid and very very still, mosquitos can be a big problem.

Merme

It's the HOA's I think and we have a lot of them here- some of them limit clotheslines too- we don't live in and area with one on purpose- don't believe in giveing someone other than the homeowner the right to tell you what you can do or not do with your own property... Carrie's in laws got in trouble with their HOA cause their neighbors wanted them to rebuild a retainng wall that the neighbors had built wrong in the first place- it fell down into the inlaws yard so they ended up doing it too, he took his time about it but he did it to keep from being sued or them hiring it done and billing them for the work, they can actually do that... isn't right to me at all.
We actually have a lot of bats here in the summers- lots of people put up bat houses on their fences for them...
Well gotta go - Timothy will be here soon and he will be starving - they will need a good snack to hold them over till dinner time..
Nana

thanks for explaining grey water. I always thought it was sewer water people were talking about when they mentioned grey water! ha ha (what a relief)

Oh Cricket, you made me laugh with that one!!

ewwwwwwwwwwwww-yyyyy!

Don't really think re-using sewage is legal, you know?


Funny, isn't it, how some things can sound in such a way as to cause a misperception?


Merme

actually sewer water is also gray water but not considered reclaimable on an individual scale. however, there is a state (don't remember which one) that I95 goes through that uses filtered, treated sewer water to provide the flush water in the rest stops. because of the treatment and filtering, it doesn't smell bad, and when you consider a lot of "sewer water" is actually storm run-off and household gray water, it actually makes sense. to use that water for the actual sewage lines instead of potable aka drinking water.

i know this because there is a sign on the back of the doors of all the stalls that explains the funky color of the toilet water

around here if your not on city water your well has to have an aerobic system. ALL the outflow from the house goes into one tank, filtered, then into another tank, and I guess filtered again. Then it goes to sprinkler heads and sprinkles on your lawn. Oh, and you also keep clorine tabs in this thingy that is (I believe) before the first tank. I've planted lillys and cannas and philodendrom around those sprinkler heads and they are just beautiful. actually my lousiana iris' are growing so crazy and so thick we now need a machine to dig them up. no way to dig them up with a shovel. once we finally get those up I'm not putting them back so close to all that water.

I was referring to "raw sewage" in the previous post about legal usage. I'm just glad we no longer have raw sewage running down our city streets as they did of old! No wonder people carried perfumed hankies at their noses when out walking!!

I think one of the things that puzzles me on this topic of greenspace vs. purposeful hardscaping is how the hardscape -- all that rock and cement changes the climate in the immediate area, making it far hotter and dryer. Anyone who's ever been in a city on a terribly hot summer day will know what I'm thinking of -- all those surfaces holding and reflecting the heat and light, blocking air flow, etc. It just doesn't feel ecological to me, somehow.

What Cricket mentioned about working with native plants makes good sense, though.

Merme

Interesting point, Merme, and another reason I am so glad that NYC has taken on "greening up the city" by planting loads of trees wherever they can. Not that there are that many spaces left to do so, but thankfully they are putting them in, in whatever spaces they can find.

Merme, it's not really ecological. But some people can't afford so much water, or they are just too lazy/lack of time, or don't have an interest in gardening. Or I guess in a desert climate people are going for the desert kind of feel with their landscaping. It would be hard to turn a rainforest into a desert, just like it would be hard to change a desert climate into a lush rainforest feeling.

I have neighbors that have beautiful yards, but they are bare of any plants. I often think, how can a person not have any interest in making the outside of their home more beautiful with plants and flowers. My neighbors have a big yard for this area, but it's mostly just a parking lot. I often wish I could go over and garden there. She had a hanging basket a few years ago and each day it died a little more because she couldn't even find the time to water it. I felt like rescuing it.

I've seen yards like that also, Loz, all around the country over the years. It always makes me itch to get digging in the dirt for them!

You'd love my neighbor just down the road a bit. She has a tiny tiny little front yard and has it COMPLETELY planted -- a wee pathway, lights, ornaments and flowers galore! She probably couldn't put one more thing in there but I bet she tries! I love going past her place -- all that effort in such a small small space.

Merme

Thanks, Joclyn!

Actually, loz introduced the word "xeriscaping" to this discussion in one of the posts you say you didn't catch. I had to go look it up because it was an unknown word to me! According to that philosophy, planting cactus in a desert makes sense but I'm still struggling over some of the other aspects I've thought of. So, I'm continuing to read and think and ask questions!

I like it when lots of people jump in to a conversation because even if two or more people say the same things, it can be stated in different ways and sometimes the alternate statement will enlighten in a way the first comment didn't. Besides, I like a big mix-er-up with an entire passel of people yakking. The more, the funner. Or is that supposed to be more/merrier?

Merme *O she with the expanding vocabulary*

someone mentioned the cost of watering in a desert like region. what about the cost of adding concrete and rock. concrete and rock are not cheap. I would think it'd be cheaper to have added native and adaptive plants, grasses, cacti. if they are native they wouldn't need extra watering. and when it did rain, water would drain better and feed the soil underneath. and isn't that the point of 'green'. disturbing as little of the natural enviornment as possible? don't think way-back-when there was naturally concrete in that spot.

Ive really been enjoying this topic!

Cricket, that's how I think of the phrase in the definition of "xeriscape" I found... "sound horticultural principles/practices" (I forget which). That whatever we do in an area, we should try to enhance it, improve it, or leave it alone!

Many years ago, my aunt and uncle had a deep creek in a ravine along the edge of their property in NJ. It was a small bit of wilderness with lots of trees and wild growing things and animal life. My cousins and all the other famiy kids enjoyed that area so much! Well, at some point, the state decided what they HAD to do was dig out the creek and put in a cement culvert because they were planning to re-route a highway through the area and the site couldn't be left alone. All the protests and legal wrangling didn't stop the project and my then-teenage cousin nearly got arrested for trying to stop the bulldozers from taking out the beautiful trees. The project went through -- the state cleared the trees, poured all that concrete, the creek pretty much dried up and the wildlife moved away. It felt like SUCH a tragedy! And guess what? Later the state decided to NOT move the highway after all and so the newly built culvert was completely unnecessary but the damage was already done.

Decades later, it still breaks my heart to think of it. But that sort of story can be repeated many many times all over America concerning half-built but unused highways, bridges, etc etc.

Have any of you seen the TV ads for Planet Green about the town destroyed by a hurricane that is going to be rebuilt 100% green?

Merme

Merme, I saw that show on HGTV.....it was a Designed to Sell....they were not in a desert area and I hated that they pulled up all of the lawn and thought the same as you when they explained that it was "green". In all honesty, if you have a rough summer rain wise, then don't water the lawn...it'll come back when it eventually rains. May not look pretty, but everyone's will be the same, ya know?

There was a side conversation going on about waste water and such. In the town that we are moving to, there is no sewer and the perk tests come back saying that you do not need an above ground treatment (sand mound) for the sewage, so everyone has well water (no municipal water in the town) and everyone has a cesspool in their yard. While a good cesspool doesn't need emptied, the town requires that you have it emptied every 5 years. The cesspool in our yard is huge....larger than what most houses have that are newer. Average size is 1000 gallons....ours is probably about 1500 gallons. Anyways....no smell with the cesspool either.

Here's what I've been wondering and pondering about...

We waste an awful lot of water (and pay through the nose for it too!) while waiting for the hot water to get up to our third level bed/2 full bathroom level from the hot water heater in the basement. In the winter it seems to take forever for it to turn even lukewarm. And this is with a new hot water heater too - it's just the distance that it has to travel.

There's too much water - heavy - to collect and carry downstairs and out to the gardens. It just seems so very wasteful... not to mention the dent it puts in our pocketbook!!!

good point! so,what do we do that is convient?

COME ON GUYS... ...I know there are some opionions out there.

Lynne ~

In your situation, I'd be tempted to have a casual conversation with someone who knows plumbing. Oh, just to inquire about the feasibility of and costs involved with a project such as diverting just some of the grey water for re-use. For instance, from a single drain (kitchen sink or main shower)for repurposing. I would just wanna know.

The other thing I thought of from your post is those new instant water heaters that are so small they hang on the wall. Have you seen them? I see them in use now all the time on HGTV and while they are more expensive than the traditional water heater, they save 60% over the course of the year on the cost of heating water and they work very, very quickly. Easily installed on the same level as your bathroom, it would also do away with that long travel time through the pipes of the house. No one has stated their actual cost on TV that I've heard, so they may not be practical for a retro-fit, but it is an interesting thought.

Have any of you seen the equipment needed for oil diesel? Using used vegetable oil for home heating?

Merme

yes in desert areas it can be beneficial, not that I cared for it, but when we lived in New Mexico all the yards there were done in gravel, it helped not only in the dry season but in the rainy as well because the gravel held the dirt in place and kept it from washing away

no, I have not seen any equipment for using vegetable oil for home heating.

on saving on shower water waiting for it to heat up...I don't know if this is gonna make any sense, but I believe I have a reverse example of how one might save water. when we first moved into our new place the main line from the well to the house was on top of the ground. we did a lot of the things ourselves and that was one of them that just got 'do it this way for now and we'll fix it later' kinda things. anyway, it was in the heat of the summer. first thing i always did coming in from work was to put a load of laundry in. no matter what temp i'd set the washer on, the water would come out burning hot, for a long period of time. I learned to wash my whites ect first. or i'd do a load of dishes in the dishwasher first to use up that hot hot water.

I saw that on a show once, don't remember what show it was but they were talking about it